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Post by Quizz Kid on Jun 2, 2014 22:36:50 GMT
I've browsed through Tull world on Facebook tonight and see a re-run of a lot of debate old twaddle about Martin's spilt with Ian and his current band and his output. My post here was intitated by a PM on facebook which asked me if I could let them know what the full story was. First off, I find the whole two faced aspect of posting a slagging off of Martin, one of the nicest professional musicians I've ever met, followed by a comment saying I'll go and see him/get his autograph/cosy up to him, says more about the writer than Martin. The whole tale of the split is one that hasn't been put to bed by either side to the satisfaction of some people who still want to resurrect their version of their story to get their personal FB membership up or themselves noticed. We all know that Martin and Ian have parted company, for how long I'm asked, other than a few insiders who may know the whole story no one knows and I'm not one of those insiders. Maybe they have a plan to get back together at sometime, maybe they don't. My suspicion is the plan is there is no plan. However, either way we have the pleasure of two sides of Tull music being presented by Ian as well as Martin, with both presentations being reinvigorated to some degree; the sad part is it took a split to achieve that. And, as well as those two sides of Tull we also have the new crop of Ian Anderson material played by Ian and his band. In my view we could argue all day about whether this band, or Ian alone, is Tull or not, until the cows come home, but I'm not bothered to wait around for that, I'd rather enjoy it as best I can. For me when Ian calls it Jethro Tull, then I'll do the same, but since he says he wants to retire the name I'll respect that, as much as I respect Martin's right to play Tull music and bill himself as 'Jethro Tull's Martin Barre'. I'm just grateful that the band Jethro Tull as I regard them, and Ian and Martin have stayed around so long for me to enjoy over a fairly huge chunk of my life. As for the, want of a better term, self-absorbed arguments put forward perpetuating the Martin vs Florian debate, then why can't people simply respect that both are fine but very different guitarists, have your preferences, but no need to turn it into a war. If anyone [well almost anyone ]wants to discuss it here then we welcome discussion here, but the level of disrespect shown to Martin in some of these posts borders on abuse and would not be welcomed here. We'd even let Mick Abraham's fans have their say about that whippersnapper Martin Barre. Oh, yes, I've actually seen Martin play since the split, even though it was a bit rough round the edges since it was one of the early gigs at The Borderline, it was still a lot lot better than some big bnads I've seen, please stop knocking him for getting off his arse and getting out there to the fans, and as for his book, can't wait.
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Post by lucas on Jun 2, 2014 23:50:04 GMT
This is a lot of silly discutions really. Both are making good music, that makes me happy. If they do get back together someday, I'll be happier, but that only time will time. As for Florian, I enjoy his playing and learned to absorve and like his style on HE. He's a great player indeed.
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Post by Gerrald Bostock on Jun 3, 2014 1:21:18 GMT
This is my take on the Martin and Ian debate. Jethro Tull official stopped being "Tull" July 30 2011. Since that time there has been a lot water over the dam. The real reason why Martin and Ian are no longer doing music together lies entirely with Martin and Ian. They are the only ones who know exactly what has happened and until we hear if from them it is all speculation on our parts.
However with that said, it seems that there is some who keep wanting to fan the fire. It is a shame that some want to try and shout anybody down if they have a differing opinion than theirs. They try and shape the debate by yelling the longest and loudest thus taking away others opinion by shouting over them. A shame really as this is simply about a rock n roll band, hardly a life and death situation, but they want to make the debate seem that way
.Ian has never called these last two solo albums anything but the Ian Anderson Band with a tagline of plays Jethro Tull or Jethro Tull's Ian Anderson. As for Martin he uses the a tag line that also has Jethro Tull in it, but he is not calling it Jethro Tull. Ian himself has stated he wants to distance himself from using that moniker as he gets on with his solo career. It seems that there are only a small handful of people who want to call it "Tull". Which if they want to think it is so be it, they can call what they want, The sticky situation comes when they do not let others correctly state that is not "Tull". The go on attack mode and pounce on anyone who does not agree with them. In effect trying to shut down down others free speech. A shame really, if Ian changes his mind and decides to start calling his band "Jethro Tull" then it will be as far as I am concerned, but until he does the name is on haitus.
I have very rarely weighed in on the Martin and Florian debate. As I think both are fine players. Playing in two different era's and in two different bands with Ian in the center of both bands. When Ian was writing the material in Jethro Tull the group had much more freedom to do improvisations, it was a group effort. Most every interview Ian did until 2012 TAAB2 he always said they were group albums, but Ian changed that position in 2012 saying "he" did it all, they were still his babies. They might be, but without Martin I would have to bet they would sound very thin and not be remembered for the songs we hear today. They would be completely unrecognizable. Truth is the Ian made Martin and Martin made Ian, people will always say Ian would of found someone else, maybe so, but maybe we don't get albums like Songs From The Wood, Minstrel or Crest of Knave or even TAAB or A Passion Play. Martin allowed Ian to do those albums because Ian knew Martin's strengths and it worked for 40 plus years.
Florian is a fine guitarist as well, I think that Ian has limited Florian's playing in the last two albums, Ian says, here is the note play it this way, no room for improv, just the sound Ian wants. Which is fine if that is how Ian wants it to sound great. But Florian is kind of in a no win situation, I would bet he would just rather be the guitarist, and not hear all of this debate back and forth by some.
It is also a treat to hear Ian's new music, on first listen I did not have that opinion,the album has grown on me considerably. It seems to play well live which is also a good sign. The biggest complaint I have is there should be more instrumental, more acoustic guitar. I think that Florian should of been able to "play" more, some of his solo's almost seem formulated. I have heard part 2 of the show "the best of Jethro Tull", although they play it without a hitch, but it just does not sound right. It is missing Martin. Yes Florian tears up Aqualung and it is great it is not the same.
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Duncman78
Cub Scout
The superhighway: you pays your way….. you takes your choice, change your horses, raise your voice.
Posts: 40
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Post by Duncman78 on Jun 3, 2014 10:34:33 GMT
When Ian first started using Florian in his orchestral and other shows, I always had a feeling that he would eventually use him on a record or more. The boy has got talent and has obviously helped (along with John, Dave and Scott) to pull Ian's finger out to produce great new material these last couple of years. I love Martin and what he's done in the past is brilliant, but something needed to change I think or else we may have just ended up with more 'best of' tours, which I for one would have enjoyed, but would have pulled my hair out too wanting something new - especially as I was unfortunate to not be around when albums were released every year. When the countdown counter came up on the Tull website, I was very curious to what it meant - I initially guessed a new look website. When it transpired to be an Ian Anderson Taab tour, I was shocked. I immediately wrote on their FB page 'you can't play this without MB' or something along those lines. No offence to Flo, but I just thought that M should have been involved, but when we then had that second countdown and TAAB2 was revealed, it all made perfect sense and I looked forward with great anticipation to the tour, but more importantly the new music. It would have been nice for M have been a part of taab2, but as I said earlier, I always expected F to be on a proper album at some point and he did a brilliant job on record even more so live (Albert Hall gig was amazing). I saw Martin play a couple of years ago during his first tour since the hiatus and he rocked. Whilst it wasn't as grand as a Tull gig, it was raw and had energy; a real joy to experience and a band that could only get better and tighter as the months went on, culminating in an album that I really can't wait much longer for this summer. Unfortunately everything can't stay the same for ever, but at least we're getting a lot more musical output from IA and MB than we could have hoped for. I'm happy for them both and glad that they're working with other brilliant musicians to produce music (old and new) of this standard. Fortunately, from what I've seen, the negative and malicious comments on FB are few and far between (although enough to upset that moment of your day from time to time), but it seems that there will always be rubbish like that happening - the safety of sitting in front of a screen with a username. Happens with everything, especially on FB, from Doctor Who, Seth Lakeman to the page of my local town. Maybe flower power will return one day?? respect, peace man, and all of that...... sorry, waffling and off on a tangent again
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Post by Tulltapes on Jun 3, 2014 11:46:31 GMT
I have certainly overstated my opinion on the matter here and there. Mostly (suprisingly) defending Martin's legacy in Tull and my own right to not be happy about the departure. Which I wasn't! I heard that Jethro Tull would be performing TAAB live (nearly a dream come true) Only to wait months with this dreaded countdown clock to tell us that actually Tull were no more! After a lifetime's investmant in both Ian and Martin it was important for me to express my feelings about it at the time. For that I was called a "whiner" and told that Martin Barre was a loser. The name debate in general was absolutley prolonged by the few who feel that others have NO right whatsoever to express these opinions in support of Martin. But really I think they just want to argue and insult for the kick. This is still going on YEARS later. I say respect everyone's opinion and let it rest. Don't try and be the Rambo of the chat community. You're not changing anyone's mind, certainly not mine. EVER! It's a childish & trolllike mentality and shows that you really don't have much else going on. I still enjoy reading honest opinions about it here, but the back and fourth elsewhere on the web, and constant insults to Martin after 45 YEARS and thousands of performances (playing his heart out for most) is nearly pathetic. I respect these great artists who have given me so much for a lifetime. The endless, ugly debates have divided the Tull community as never before.
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Post by Gerrald Bostock on Jun 3, 2014 12:20:09 GMT
I have certainly overstated my opinion on the matter here and there. Mostly (suprisingly) defending Martin's legacy in Tull and my own right to not be happy about the departure. Which I wasn't! I heard that Jethro Tull would be performing TAAB live (nearly a dream come true) Only to wait months with this dreaded countdown clock to tell us that actually Tull were no more! After a lifetime's investmant in both Ian and Martin it was important for me to express my feelings about it at the time. For that I was called a "whiner" and told that Martin Barre was a loser. The name debate in general was absolutley prolonged by the few who feel that others have NO right whatsoever to express these opinions in support of Martin. But really I think they just want to argue and insult for the kick. This is still going on YEARS later. I say respect everyone's opinion and let it rest. Don't try and be the Rambo of the chat community. You're not changing anyone's mind, certainly not mine. EVER! It's a childish & trolllike mentality and shows that you really don't have much else going on. I still enjoy reading honest opinions about it here, but the back and fourth elsewhere on the web, and constant insults to Martin after 45 YEARS and thousands of performances (playing his heart out for most) is nearly pathetic. I respect these great artists who have given me so much for a lifetime. The endless, ugly debates have divided the Tull community as never before. Erin, the fans who are fans of Jethro Tull know that Martin's legacy is secured. But there is a small amount of folks who now want to try and attack and throw mud at Martin, a sad state of affair IMO. Funny that up until 2 years ago they were the same ones on Martin's bandwagon. It is fine that some might like someone better then some one else, but it is rather small and petty when they attack. .. I guess it is best to "just consider the source" were this comes from..
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Post by bambooflute on Jun 3, 2014 14:53:39 GMT
Oh boy.
I considered not adding my opinion to this. In doing so, I feared I would be perceived as aligning myself with the trolls. I do not approve of the methods of the trolls - the way they have hammered away at people who disagree and fostered discontent is appalling. However, in a broad sense I do share their opinion, and the reason I am writing this is that I still think it is important to be able to speak one's opinion, and to make it known that a variety of viewpoints do exist. And so...deep breath: Not every Tull fan is a Martin Barre fan. I'm not, and it doesn't bother me that Martin Barre isn't playing with Ian Anderson any more. And if Martin comes to the USA on tour I would not be interested in seeing him.
People on this board never knew me before TAAB2 came out, but, going back to 1979 when I first hard Tull, I have never been a fan of Martin. Martin's contribution means less than zero to me: and I shudder to think that makes me a sycophantic fan of IA. I am not, there are plenty of IA songs I don't like (half the new album, for example), but it is his songwriting, musicianship, lyrics and unique vision that made me a Tull fan. To be honest, I rate the contributions of the various keyboard players and drummers as more important to me than the electric guitar. I was disappointed when Andrew Giddings departed and I miss seeing and hearing Doane Perry on the drum stool. As far the electric guitar goes: Ian can hire Florian, or Kit Morgan (remember him?), or any Rent-A-Guitarist from Acme's Music Shop... it just doesn't matter to me. That's just a matter of taste, and I realize that I may be the only Tull fan who feels this way, but, once again, I feel it's important to be able to give voice to this opinion in a civilized matter. I do not judge anyone for loving Martin Barre's work, that would silly, and it is a shame that the trolls have turned a difference of opinion into a series of personal attacks. I have suffered them, from telephone lectures to anonymous crank phone calls made to my home (and these were for not liking Homo Erraticus enough - a person can't win sometimes no matter how hard he tries!). All of this for what - a difference of opinion in a rock band. I wonder if classical music aficionados resort to fisticuffs when they disagree over which violinist they like better... It's a sad state of affairs. And one of the reasons I am voicing my opinion here is that I truly believe I won't be given shit about it... If I am, then maybe it'll be time to "move on alone..."
Martin comes across as a decent guy in interviews, very laid back, humorous, and thoughtful. I've never met him, but he might be the best person out of all of Tull to have a chat with, who knows? If he was badly treated by IA (and since we weren't in the room with them we may never know), then I feel badly about that. I wish him luck with his endeavors. But when it comes to the music, I am in IA's camp, and if he wanted to call his current band Jethro Tull, I would have no objections. But right now it's the Ian Anderson Band, and, as Shakespeare wrote: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet..."
-David
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Post by Quizz Kid on Jun 3, 2014 15:41:43 GMT
Hi David,
Thanks for adding your opinion, no backlash likely here. Personally I love Martin's style of playing, but I can appreciate that it might not be a.n.other's cup of tea. I have friends, who were Tull fans back in the day who really didn't like Martin's guitar style after Aqualung, they considered that he had become less of a lead player and slowly shifted into a support rhythmn guitar role.
Difference of opinion and discussion is fine, browbeating isn't, particularly when it's the same old, same old.
From my perspective, I find it odd and sad that if Martin was 'up to the job' after 43 years, then any change from that in the band personnel should surely show a radical departure of style and sound, I don't personally hear that in TaaB2 or HE. But, then each to their own, and as you say. it's Ian's band, so it's Ian's call.
I'm sorry you have had to suffer that sort of crap from a so called fan. I feel I got off lightly with beng called a few names on Fb and the poorly organised campaign of back-stabbing on the web. You are right about would this happen elsewhere in other musical genre's, I suspect it does to alesser degree, but I wonder did it happen when Glenn was replaced by Jeffrey, repalced by John G, replaced by Dave, replaced by etc. etc. Probably not, I suspect mainly because we didn't have the internet to support such goings on.
I'm glad you added your sound and valid opinion, I'm also glad you can lsiten to other opinions as well and felt you can join in here.
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Post by bambooflute on Jun 3, 2014 15:59:46 GMT
Hi David, Thanks for adding your opinion, no backlash likely here. Personally I love Martin's style of playing, but I can appreciate that it might not be a.n.other's cup of tea. I have friends, who were Tull fans back in the day who really didn't like Martin's guitar style after Aqualung, they considered that he had become less of a lead player and slowly shifted into a support rhythmn guitar role. Difference of opinion and discussion is fine, browbeating isn't, particularly when it's the same old, same old. From my perspective, I find it odd and sad that if Martin was 'up to the job' after 43 years, then any change from that in the band personnel should surely show a radical departure of style and sound, I don't personally hear that in TaaB2 or HE. But, then each to their own, and as you say. it's Ian's band, so it's Ian's call. I'm sorry you have had to suffer that sort of crap from a so called fan. I feel I got off lightly with beng called a few names on Fb and the poorly organised campaign of back-stabbing on the web. You are right about would this happen elsewhere in other musical genre's, I suspect it does to alesser degree, but I wonder did it happen when Glenn was replaced by Jeffrey, repalced by John G, replaced by Dave, replaced by etc. etc. Probably not, I suspect mainly because we didn't have the internet to support such goings on. I'm glad you added your sound and valid opinion, I'm also glad you can lsiten to other opinions as well and felt you can join in here. Thanks, Pat. It is a relief to be able to exchange differing opinions like adults! You raise a good point though, and I don't pretend to know IA's motives behind who he chooses to be in his band, and I think Florian has a thankless job as it sounds like he's been given instructions to mimic Martin... I remember my sister, a very casual fan, being really upset when Dave Pegg left! We all have our favorite members, and I think that's great, actually. As an aside, I live next to a sports bar and have witnessed some arguments in the parking lot that have bordered on violence regarding whose team is "better," etc. Perhaps these childish urges are built in the human animal... Hey, maybe IA should write a song about that! It would've fit in quite well on H.E. -David
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Post by Gerrald Bostock on Jun 3, 2014 16:06:12 GMT
Oh boy. I considered not adding my opinion to this. In doing so, I feared I would be perceived as aligning myself with the trolls. I do not approve of the methods of the trolls - the way they have hammered away at people who disagree and fostered discontent is appalling. However, in a broad sense I do share their opinion, and the reason I am writing this is that I still think it is important to be able to speak one's opinion, and to make it known that a variety of viewpoints do exist. And so...deep breath: Not every Tull fan is a Martin Barre fan. I'm not, and it doesn't bother me that Martin Barre isn't playing with Ian Anderson any more. And if Martin comes to the USA on tour I would not be interested in seeing him. People on this board never knew me before TAAB2 came out, but, going back to 1979 when I first hard Tull, I have never been a fan of Martin. Martin's contribution means less than zero to me: and I shudder to think that makes me a sycophantic fan of IA. I am not, there are plenty of IA songs I don't like (half the new album, for example), but it is his songwriting, musicianship, lyrics and unique vision that made me a Tull fan. To be honest, I rate the contributions of the various keyboard players and drummers as more important to me than the electric guitar. I was disappointed when Andrew Giddings departed and I miss seeing and hearing Doane Perry on the drum stool. As far the electric guitar goes: Ian can hire Florian, or Kit Morgan (remember him?), or any Rent-A-Guitarist from Acme's Music Shop... it just doesn't matter to me. That's just a matter of taste, and I realize that I may be the only Tull fan who feels this way, but, once again, I feel it's important to be able to give voice to this opinion in a civilized matter. I do not judge anyone for loving Martin Barre's work, that would silly, and it is a shame that the trolls have turned a difference of opinion into a series of personal attacks. I have suffered them, from telephone lectures to anonymous crank phone calls made to my home (and these were for not liking Homo Erraticus enough - a person can't win sometimes no matter how hard he tries!). All of this for what - a difference of opinion in a rock band. I wonder if classical music aficionados resort to fisticuffs when they disagree over which violinist they like better... It's a sad state of affairs. And one of the reasons I am voicing my opinion here is that I truly believe I won't be given shit about it... If I am, then maybe it'll be time to "move on alone..." Martin comes across as a decent guy in interviews, very laid back, humorous, and thoughtful. I've never met him, but he might be the best person out of all of Tull to have a chat with, who knows? If he was badly treated by IA (and since we weren't in the room with them we may never know), then I feel badly about that. I wish him luck with his endeavors. But when it comes to the music, I am in IA's camp, and if he wanted to call his current band Jethro Tull, I would have no objections. But right now it's the Ian Anderson Band, and, as Shakespeare wrote: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet..." -David That is well stated, Everyone is entitled to "their" opinion, it does not matter what people might think as long as their can be a civilized debate on a subject . Absolutely no need to have anyone's feathers to be ruffled. Sad when some have to resort to the harassing and being little prepubescent idiots who have to resort to these kind of acts. Just to try and influence someone, a sad world we live in when people resort to this. I am glad we can have differing of opinions and every side listens to each others points. Then draw an adult conclusion. Both sides of the story need to be told and then you can gain better perspective. I have no use for ANYONE who would resort to that, all for a difference of opinion.. David please always say what is on your mind, do not let others try and stifle your words.
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Post by Quizz Kid on Jun 3, 2014 16:56:31 GMT
As an aside, I live next to a sports bar and have witnessed some arguments in the parking lot that have bordered on violence regarding whose team is "better," etc. Perhaps these childish urges are built in the human animal... Hey, maybe IA should write a song about that! It would've fit in quite well on H.E. -David I fervently follow my football club, which goes against the grain for my family as I come from south London but support by choice a north London side [Spurs]. I left the club my family supported after I witnessed home fan fighting home fan. Seems one 'rival' is not enough for some, tey have to fight their own. We [Spurs] have a number of 'rival' clubs, the most vociferously 'disliked' by the majority of our fans being Arsenal, I can readily join in banter about them but can't subscribe to the mindless tribal aspects of some who take it too far and denigrate everything about the club or take it to violence. I mean look at our board member Jioffe, he's an Arsenal supporter but luckily he's also a Tull fan so I cut him some slack now and then about his club :-) In the end it's a game, and every four years as a ntion we all pull together in the hopeless ambition that the best of our individually supported teams can play together and win the World Cup..... and if that's not a cue for Jioffe to start up a world cup thread I don't know what is! Maybe we can post a picture of all the venues so that you non-footballing types can see what's what! and I think it's the same with Ian, Tull, Non-Tull, Martin, etc, etc, It's just a rock and roll band, undoubtedly the best of the bunch and when supporters start fighting amongst themselves its a bit sad given most of us are of an age to know better.
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jioffe
Cub Scout
Just plain Jurassic
Posts: 23
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Post by jioffe on Jun 5, 2014 20:25:02 GMT
Pat wrote: I fervently follow my football club, which goes against the grain for my family as I come from south London but support by choice a north London side [Spurs]. I left the club my family supported after I witnessed home fan fighting home fan. Seems one 'rival' is not enough for some, tey have to fight their own. Not Millwall, by any chance? We [Spurs] have a number of 'rival' clubs, the most vociferously 'disliked' by the majority of our fans being Arsenal, I can readily join in banter about them but can't subscribe to the mindless tribal aspects of some who take it too far and denigrate everything about the club or take it to violence. I mean look at our board member Jioffe, he's an Arsenal supporter but luckily he's also a Tull fan so I cut him some slack now and then about his club :-)Really? Hadn't noticed. In the end it's a game, and every four years as a ntion we all pull together in the hopeless ambition that the best of our individually supported teams can play together and win the World Cup..... and if that's not a cue for Jioffe to start up a world cup thread I don't know what is! Maybe we can post a picture of all the venues so that you non-footballing types can see what's what!Apart from a photo of me outside the (unfinished) Maracana, taken last October, I can't see how pictures of building sites or bodies falling through the sky are going to help anybody. Actually, the World Cup is a bit of a sore point at the moment, as I've just let my wife talk me into a week in Devon on week 4 of the tournament and we'll be travelling home when the final is on. Still, it's not as if there's the remotest chance of England still being there, or anything... and I think it's the same with Ian, Tull, Non-Tull, Martin, etc, etc, It's just a rock and roll band, undoubtedly the best of the bunch and when supporters start fighting amongst themselves its a bit sad given most of us are of an age to know better.What's this got to do with footie? Sorry, only kidding. Of course, I wholeheartedly agree with the serious point! Cheers, jioffe.
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Post by progrockdeepcuts on Jun 5, 2014 22:10:09 GMT
Personally, I do wish Martin were in the band, but unfortunately it seemed like no new music was being produced. Martin's out and all of a sudden we get two quick albums from IA. Weird. Anyway, I think it is best for us Tull fans to try our best to appreciate and support both bands, Ian's and Martin's, and it's not really "up to me" (as an outsider) to take sides in this personal matter between two people who have worked together for 42 years. Its best to just step back and enjoy the art that's coming from these two musical masters, than to argue over what happened behind closed doors.
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